By Reath Neilson
Work of Art manager and SVP Artist Development Brandon Epstein discusses the success of Tai Verdes and Mike Posner, among other clients, and his experience as an out gay man in the modern biz.
You’re in the middle of Tai Verdes’ HDTV tour. How has it been?
It’s been really good. I'm constantly awestruck by these moments where I'm stopped in my tracks and like, “Fuck, this is really cool.” I think we always knew at the time the project was special, but we got a bit of an inkling of its potential at Lollapalooza last year, where something like 35,000 people showed up for a set. That kind of changed the game for everybody. What's so great with Tai is he's all about “time on task.” He keeps pushing and pushing, and those are the kinds of artists who are exciting to work with. The ones who constantly push us, inspire us.
When you finished your studies at Boston University and began your career, were you already out?
Yeah, I came out freshman year of college, at first mostly to my close group of friends and then to my parents at the end of that year. I didn't really talk about my sexuality a lot. Not that I hid it; my friends certainly knew. But I distinctly remember a moment a year into my first job where I was having a conversation with my boss, and he stopped me at one point and said, “Wait, you're really gay?” And I was like, “Yeah.” From a career perspective, I feel like I've always been out and I don't remember a time when I wasn't. So much has happened and transpired—I was 18 when I came out, and I'm 35 today. So it's been a long time. It feels like my entire life.
What was the climate like specifically for LGBTQ+ plus folks in general at the outset of your career and how has it changed and stayed the same?
When I first started, I was an assistant, a day-to-day person. I had my core group of friends, and we ran around Green Point, drank too much and went to eight shows a week. We had a lot of fun. I think that those first couple of years in the music industry were more about me forming bonds with the people who were my age, and who were working on similar things as me.
I worked at a small boutique management company and loved it there. I found a crew of other people who were young and worked at labels and in management and publicity. I feel really fortunate that I don't think I ever experienced a moment in my career where I've felt that being gay precludes me from something or makes somebody view me differently. As I started to establish myself, it was always a part of my identity. We work in an odd industry where there are few lines between your friends and the people you see at shows, it all sort of spills over. I've been lucky to have always felt very accepted and supported across the board.
That said, it definitely wasn't talked about as much then. I don't remember when industry publications started talking about LGBTQ+ executives and musicians. The big stories were like, “Sam Smith is gay.” It wasn't really a topic of conversation like it is today and to some extent inclusion in general wasn't top of mind for everybody, like it is today.
What responsibility does the music industry have in helping enact positive societal change and advancing important cultural conversations?
That's the trillion-dollar question. As an industry, we are constantly pushing culture forward. I think that artists, executives, and music companies have a responsibility to say, “Hey, we support everybody.” Our individual and collective voices can be used to help bring people towards the center and into the fold. I think we are always striving to do a better job of using our voice for good. What’s right is right, and people deserve to live their lives freely without being told what they can do or who they can love.
Male self-expression has been changing in pop music. Gay and straight men alike have been showcasing their femininity as well as their masculinity, prime examples being Harry Styles or your supergroup, Mansionz (blackbear and Mike Posner). How has the greater visibility of out and proud LGBTQ+ artists affected the culture? I think Harry Styles is a perfect example of it. I saw a video of him at a concert recently helping a fan come out, which is really beautiful. Shawn Mendes is another example; he talks about being in touch with your feelings all the time. I think as a society we are conditioned to hide these things and put ourselves neatly in boxes. When you remove the conditioning, people are able to find themselves early on in their lives, which I think we're seeing more of with young people who cite some of these artists as examples. Love, heartache and pain are all universal. It's not that complicated but I think we have years and years of conditioning to undo so that everybody can feel comfortable in their skin.
Orville Peck is writing these classic cowboy songs about men and male interests. “My heart bleeds just the same.” It’s just as impactful and cuts through regardless of who the songs written for.
Absolutely. The Lil Nas X example is a really fun one, because everybody made this assumption about him and then he’s like, “Oh boy, were you wrong.” He’s kind of like, “Fuck off. I’m gonna twerk on the devil.” He puts on one of the best shows I have ever seen, and the songs are bangers. We talk about this shift in the industry and how certain artists are choosing to impact culture, and say ,“You know what, fuck you and fuck this, this is me.” Harry is doing it in a slightly different way and that’s cool. To anyone who thinks Harry is any less of a heartthrob, just ask the screaming girls. It’s amazing to watch everybody be themselves.
What advice would you give to a young, LGBTQ+ individual just starting a career in entertainment?
My advice is to just be so authentically you. Because at the end of the day we have to remember who is listening to the music. These are kids at home who are diving into this art for various reasons. It’s entertainment or boredom or escape. I have a similar conversation with the artists that I work with, but we talk about live shows. We don't know where these people are coming from or what their day was like or what they're going through at a home. But when they come to one of your shows, everyone's the same.
What's happening in that moment is once in a lifetime and a shared experience amongst this group of people. I think that there's a lot of power in that.
I think we as people on the business side of music need to do a better job of making sure that people like Harry Styles are never told they can't say something or be what they want to be. That fact is there’s an audience out there for everybody. Music cuts through. And being authentically yourself applies in general, beyond the industry. You'll find your people.
Let’s get back to Tai Verdes. He tried out for several talent competition shows and won season six of Are You the One on MTV, but his career didn't properly take off until “A-O-K” took off on TikTok. What contributed to his sudden success on the platform?
Tai will say that he doesn't believe in genius; he believes in time on task. He’s constantly tinkering until something connects. He started using TikTok at an interesting time, and I think he’d find it very difficult today to break through the way that he did then. There was a moment when everybody was stuck at home at the beginning of the pandemic, where you could be over the top. Tai was bored, working in a Verizon store, and looked like so many other people who were just scrolling TikTok or Instagram on their phones, also bored working at these empty retail stores. And they're watching Tai's content and rooting for him.
I just got back from VidCon with Tai, where we talked to some of these incredible creators who are all just like Tai, working regular jobs and making music on this side or are just funny with 20 million followers on TikTok and producing original content. It’s incredible. So Tai is a very small part of that ecosystem, but I do think he’s probably the most quintessential example of a consistent success story that comes from that platform. We certainly don't take any of it for granted. I can't believe I'm saying this, because we're like a billion and a half streams in, but like we're also nowhere. We’re constantly trying to move the needle and prove to people that he's not just like some kid off TikTok, but you know, everyone right now is just some kid off TikTok.
What insights can you give to young artists or managers looking to promote their music and grow their following in an organic way? Do you have any TikTok dos and don’ts?
The best advice specifically pertaining to TikTok is don't be shy. Just keep making content. It doesn't have to be special or funny and you don't have to do dances. Just keep making things. I distinctly remember getting a 3:00 AM text from Tai where he was like, “I get it. It's like McDonald's commercials. I was watching TV and they just air all the time. And like, no one gets mad about it.” What he meant was if somebody goes to your page, they don't know that you posted five of them in a day. Nobody cares. It's so simple. It's so easy to swipe through, that it doesn't matter what you do. TikTok breeds visibility. Tai's a really good example of that in particular.
Tai's songs have been used 4 million times across TikTok creations, but the views of those 4 million uses equals over 15 billion. In what other world does that happen? And I would say Tai's face has probably been on TikTok, maybe three quarters of a billion times. TikTok is capable of building this kind of recognition for musicians specifically, if you're showing up with songs that slap, where people will listen to. We've never had a number one and we haven't had a billion-streaming song yet, “A-O-K” will probably get there and do a billion streams in its lifetime. But we've done billions of streams across an entire catalog of music because he was just himself on the platform and people liked that.
People definitely like that authenticity, that accessibility.
That's what it is. And there's certainly a lot of drama about TikTok. Some people love it, some people hate it. And I get it, there's a lot of people who are trying to keep up. All the labels, agencies and promoters are trying to figure out how to reach people on these platforms. Some artists aren't quite sure how to do it and that's okay. If you really hate it and don’t want to do it, don't. But then you have to figure out something else because it's really all about attention and exposure. Unfortunately, we don’t have TRL (MTV’s Total Request Live) anymore. Certainly, we've been fortunate that multiple songs do really well at the pop radio format, and that's a big help, but it can't just be that. TikTok, Instagram, even Twitter, these are just tools. Gen Z tends to be a lot more open and accepting than millennials. Kids are just themselves now and that's awesome. This is who I am. This is what I want to do. This is who I want to be and the message I want to send. TikTok is just a really special place.
Photos: Brandon; with Work of Art's Ryan Chisholm and artist Tai Verdes; with Chisholm and Claire Rosinkranz; with Chisholm and Verdes. Credits: Austin Cieszko, Angelo Kritikos
