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THE HITS INTERVIEW

Our Lunch With Irving; the Second of a Two-Part Series

In Part One of this wide-ranging conversation with the hardest-working man in showbiz (the cover story in HITS’ year-end issue), Irving Azoff colorfully recalled his initial immersion in the L.A. music business during the first half of the 1970s. For the revealing concluding installment, we fast-forward to the present, wherein Azoff goes into greater detail than ever before on such topics as Azoff MSG Entertainment, Azoff Management and its roster of living legends, the renovated Forum, his ambitious comedy venture with Levity and the envelope-pushing PRO Global Music Rights, which he formed last year in partnership with former ASCAP exec Randy Grimmett. He also weighs in on the current condition of the major-label sector and speculates on its future. Throughout, Irving is readily identifiable as the funny, candid, razor-sharp prankster/mogul who’s been entertaining, terrorizing and reshaping the music business for the last four-plus decades.

You had a reputation of going to war with people.
None of that changes. Basically, in this business, if you’re going to be a manager or a caretaker for talent in any way and you’re not in a fight with somebody, you’re not discharging your responsibility. My new fight is in the areas of control and payments. Writers and writer/artists are getting screwed by the system. I’m not anti-BMI or anti-ASCAP; I am anti-system. It’s the governments around the world that are screwing up, and digital services that hide behind radio legislation.

You’ve always been an artist advocate. That’s been the foundation of your career.
It’s very easy for people to say I’m an advocate for artists, but it’s in my DNA—it’s how I started. It’s no secret that Dan Fogelberg was my first roommate. I roomed with Frey and Henley and Stevie Nicks also. I like artists. A lot of my friends are artists, and I really believe that they get the short end of the stick. So when I started this company, when I got out of the public-company thing, I said, look, we’re at a time where the music business should be disrupted. Every time there’s new technology there’s disruption. This time is the first time it really disrupted the economics on the recorded-music side. But because of this change, I’d like to be disruptive, because it goes along with my Dennis the Menace mission in life. It also has to do something that’s great for artists and fans.

If Randy Grimmett and his team hadn’t been available, I wouldn’t have done it. I really believe right now that we’re the most committed to writers and we’re going to do the best job. I put my money, and Jim Dolan’s money and MSG’s money, where my mouth is, because we’ve stepped up and made a major investment. And it isn’t just about charging more. Pandora pays far more for the master than it does for the copyright, and that’s just not fair.

Broadcast radio, on the other hand, pays nothing for the master.
Exactly. That’s their answer. At analog radio, the labels get nothing, so with digital we’ve gotta get more. The whole system needs an overhaul, and Randy and I can make a difference. We found a hole to get in that can really upset the apple cart, and we intend to do that.

You’re passionate about this PRO overhaul. You don’t sound like it’s just a sideline for you.
Oh, no. And it’s great. By the way, the public-company thing was not for me.

What businesses are you in? What is the business of Azoff MSG?
I’m a private company; I’m in any business I want to be in, but I’m willing to talk about the following: We hold our interest in HITS magazine…

When we started HITS magazine, you bought a quarter of 1% for $5.
And we’ve been trading on that ever since.

And it’s worth at least $2.50 now. [Laughter]
And I think I own a piece of Pollstar too. You don’t mind if I take a shot at them, do you? Clearly, we are in the performing-rights business; we’re in the management business. On the management side—we don’t release figures to rags like Billboard or HITS or Pollstar—but Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles have phenomenal numbers. It’s insane how big these tours are. We had banner years with the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac; Steely Dan had its biggest year; Boston had its biggest year. Both Jennifer Hudson and Earth, Wind & Fire are out there killing. We’re currently putting together a Gwen Stefani tour. Christina, depending on her commitments to The Voice, is getting ready.
Have any of the restrictions you were under when you left Live Nation been lifted?
Listen, I get along better with Live Nation now than when I worked there. First of all, in my mind I never recognized that there were any restrictions, and second, I’m doing what I want to do now, and third, they’ve been really supportive.

The management business is something that we love. I went in the comedy business with Chelsea Handler. And as I learned that, I took a look at comedy and thought that comedy-meets-music is an opportunity. So we’ve made an investment in a company called Levity, which owns a whole national chain of clubs under the Improv brand.

How many clubs are there?
We own or operate 27 already, and it’ll grow to 50. Four of these clubs are newly built and are really doing well, they’re not just comedy clubs; they’re 600-650-seat clubs with a music club, a restaurant and a bar. The comedy-plus-music under one roof with a restaurant and bar is the reason I made the investment. We’re going to be a national chain of music/comedy clubs. And also, Levity is in the comedy management business. They have a digital business and they have a big comedy and reality TV production business, so we’re in that business.

Who’s running the operation?
The partners are all still there. There are four key principals: Robert Hartman, Stu Schreiberg, Norm Aladjem and Judi Brown-Marmel.

Do music and comedy perform on the same night?
They go on exactly at the same time. We just opened a new one in Irvine at Spectrum. Unbelievable. Incredibly successful. It works in mall locations. We employ 300 comics a week in this chain. We have people like Margaret Cho and Jeff Dunham. We have a big management roster.

And then the other part of the company is with Chelsea. Her Netflix deal was announced, and look for a radio component, too, coming on Chelsea. Right now she’s busy; she’s got four specials to shoot for Netflix, and we’re contemplating how to launch her radio career.

But this whole venture came out of your interest in working with Chelsea Handler, right?
I had no interest in working with Chelsea Handler, and I have no interest in working with Chelsea Handler. I woke up one day and she had put out a press release that said I was now her manager, and that I know she’s a bitch but I have dealt with bitches before, because I currently manage… And of course, when I found out, I had to stop the press release and take the name of the client out. She’s hilarious. So yeah, I found out I managed her because her lawyer and her agent sent me emails congratulating me.

What was your relationship with her?
We were friends. We met on the red carpet at the premiere of Jerry Weintraub’s HBO movie.

Do you see her doing a daily radio show?
Listen, she’s got a shot. I hate to make the comparison, but she’s the likely successor to Howard Stern if he ever quit. She did a Howard-type interview show, she went back for Howard’s birthday party and then did a Super Bowl special for Sirius. Then, kaboom. I don’t know whether to syndicate it. I thought about iHeart digital; I thought about Sirius; I thought about throwing it up ourselves. We’re just trying to decide.

I don’t know if the traditional analog broadcasters are going to be able to handle that because of the language.
She’s a fine young woman. I don’t see any content problems.

I don’t think she could say “cunt” twice a day on the air.
Really? Is that what she would do?
You seem very up, very bullish on moving forward.
Well, I’ve never had more fun. I kid Jeffrey, my son, who has become a terrific executive at CAA, that I’ll work until I don’t want to work anymore, and then I’ll dump it on him. So that’s his problem.

We have the management company and we have the comedy company. I think that music is still under-appreciated in the brand business, so we’ve put together a group of companies, each of which has relation to music marketing. We’ve invested in the Burns Agency in Chicago, who represent brands in celebrity and music. It’s Pop2Life, who do big stunts, like the giant spinning Hotel California album on the Forum. It’s a company called DBA, three wonderful girls who have a digital-marketing consulting company, mostly in the fashion area, that’s now moved into music and other areas, and they represent major fashion and food bloggers. We have a suite of services available in the marketing area.

The fifth arm, Jim Dolan has been quoted many times as saying that the future of investment at MSG is through this partnership, and the live side of the business in a bigger way, the first project of which was the Forum. We’ve hit on a building concept that will help make live music healthier with music-specific buildings. With these dual-use buildings that started years ago, music was an afterthought. You built a sports building, basically; all the money from the suites goes to the sports teams, and then the music acts get to come in and pay the bills. Again, disrespect. No building pays a piece of the suites to the acts. And very few of those sound great. Madison Square Garden in New York sounds great, but it took a billion-dollar renovation to make it happen.

The Forum is arguably the best-sounding arena in the world and a model for the future. It’s not only the experience and the sound, but it’s also the fact that the acts now get choice on the dates. There are population centers that have multiple professional sports teams, and they get all the good nights. You can never really get a great arena on a Friday or Saturday night where there’s both hockey and basketball. In L.A., where you’ve got three teams, it’s even worse. So we think that there are markets that will support a Forum-type music-specific arena.

So there will be no sports at the Forum?
Boxing, tennis, wrestling, no team sports. There’s no scoreboard; there’s no ice. And remember, I want those Fridays and Saturdays as a big part of the program at the Forum, because acts can sell more tickets and sell more nights on the weekends. Tom Petty played on a Friday and Saturday night. Fleetwood Mac had five shows at the Forum. It keeps going. We believe that there are cities that need and will support music-only venues like this, and we’ve identified five of those, but I’m not gonna tell you what they are.

A lot of the acts you’re working with, like Fleetwood Mac seem to have careers that just keep growing, no matter how old they are or how long it’s been since they really had hits.
Look, I’ve always managed for the long term. I think there’s a reason why the Eagles and Steely Dan and now Earth, Wind & Fire, who’ve been with Damian and I for eight years, and Journey, who stayed at Live Nation, just get bigger. I won’t use the words “classic rock”—but if you take the iconic acts that continue to do it, market it right and deliver live, the newer acts’ managers don’t really understand how to do it.

And they have a great body of work.
But now, with everything going viral, Fleetwood Mac’s show—with Christine—as good as the four-piece show was, to add her six hits back in is huge. In my opinion, she plays an incredible, soulful, rhythmic keyboard that adds to the body of the other work. We sold out 40, and now we just keep going. We’ve added another leg, and we’ve announced a third leg. You can’t fool anybody. If you go out there and you’re not good, everybody knows about it that day.

The Eagles film brought in fans, and people really liked “The History of the Eagles” show. Every time we go back, it sells out quicker. I mean, the Eagles now is a situation where it could be a tour-in-perpetuity. There are probably 12 cities in America that they can do a residency. I think we went back to Dallas four times.

The Billy Joel model that we’re doing with MSG in New York is an incredible model, and I’m gonna steal from that, meaning do it in other cities. The Eagles, by the way, have been doing a three-year version of that in Vegas, although we don’t market it that way. The Eagles have probably done 12 shows at the MGM Grand in Vegas in the last two and a half or three years, and every one sells out.

Where’s the new talent that’s going to help sell these buildings?
We got two sellouts with Sam Smith in about a minute; two sellouts with Five Seconds of Summer; Ariana Grande, is gonna sell out. If we were sitting here a year ago, we wouldn’t have known the names of any of these three acts, and they’re already selling out multiple dates at the Forum. The business is happening. The Forum is red-hot, and people want to go there. It’s over the hump—and it’s easier to get to than Staples.

But when you’re at Staples, you walk across the street to go to a restaurant or something. At the Forum…
When you come to the Forum, you come for the music—and a drink. There’s a real difference when you’re playing weekends, especially with a Seger or a Petty, or one of those.

It’s striking how nice everyone who works there is, even the parking-lot people.
Let me just tell you. The mayor of Inglewood, James Butts, is incredible, and what he’s done in that community is incredible. And we made it a conscious effort to hire as many locals as we could. Those people are thrilled to have their jobs. The Forum has invigorated the whole Inglewood economy. We have unions there, but we made them hire local people, who are thrilled. Every act that goes in there says to me they can’t believe how polite the staff is.

DUDES INVADE ROYAL DORNOCH: Jack Rose, Mitch Rose, Jeffrey Azoff, Irving, Rob Light, Logan Light, Cameron Azoff and Colin Hodgson take to the links in Scotland.

What got you interested in doing something with the Forum?
The Forum has been a real labor of love. My interest started when Jerry Moss called me one day years ago and said, “Annie was watching 60 Minutes and saw this piece.” There were these doctors who go into a community and get volunteer doctors and provide free health and dental care and emergency health care. Anne got in touch with those people, and they told her they wanted to get the Sports Arena in L.A. to do the same thing. I had somebody rehearsing at the Forum right about then, and I said, “Why not go to Inglewood at the Forum? The Sports Arena is city/county/state; you’re gonna have politics. The church owns the Forum; you need to have a private owner.” I got a hold of the bishop, set it up, and I think we had 450 doctors and dentists over a week or two down there.

For the record, Dolan bought the Forum while I was still at Live Nation. The Live Nation board passed, and when I was leaving Live Nation, I took it to Dolan. He said, “Tell them a price.” We were able to buy and renovate it. Jim has done the same thing with the Beacon, Radio City and the Garden; nobody really will spend what he will spend to restore a building. I said, “If we’re gonna do the Forum and we’re gonna compete with Staples, and this is gonna be what we build the rest of our facilities on, let’s really hit it out of the park.”

Let’s talk about the music business. Where are we going and when does the worm turn—or does the worm turn?
I think there are two hot issues to address. Every one of them has to somehow move from being a record company to being a music company, and I don’t think you can be a music company and ignore branding or sponsorship. How you make the segue to add those businesses is important. You can’t sit there and say, “We own rights,” and exercise blocking rights. You’ve got to add something. So I think that’s an issue, and the second issue—the big issue—is obviously, is it streaming or is it subscription and sales? Can streaming revenues grow enough, or can you convert enough to subscription? I think every country in the world is different. We can’t assign one blanket answer. But the future of the recorded-music companies is those two issues and what they do with it.

Do you think they’ll survive?
They have to survive. Music as an art form is never going away, and these three big companies own the history of music, so they’ve gotta survive. The question is, are they going to be dominant in the future?

What happens to WMG?
Whatever Len Blavatnik wants to happen. Warners is to Len as the Clippers are to Steve Ballmer.

But haven’t we seen a history of the owners of these companies who weren’t music people destroy them? Look what they did the EMI and to BMG. They were great companies.
Let’s looks at the three big music companies. Warners is owned by an individual, Len Blavatnik; Sony is owned by a Japanese company that was able to explode their influence in the world on the back of recorded music—based on the Sony Walkman. I’m not really sure who controls Sony these days, and what their long-term commitment is to the music business; that’s an unknown. And Universal’s parent company is in transition with a new chairman and a new business plan. If you really look, who are the three guys in the business? It’s Lucian, Doug and Len Blavatnik. I would argue that we have three guys who like music and artists. It’s better than what we used to go through, where some of these guys couldn’t listen to a record.

One other thing: Everything’s chart-driven; everybody wants to know what the iTunes chart is. It’s no secret that my acts don’t report grosses to trade publications, and that’s because I don’t want to continue to contribute to an imperfect science. I mean, it isn’t SoundScan; it isn’t Nielsen. They are bullshit charts that aren’t reality. The shitty thing is you’ve got Wall Street analysts going, “Business up 11%; business down 6%.” If you look at the Pollstar chart, there’s not one Eagles post. The Eagles could have been 4% of the entire business last year, but Pollstar wouldn’t know.


What’s your take on the Jimmy Iovine-iTunes thing?
Look, I think Jimmy is gonna go in there and make it easier for them to respect and understand recorded music and artists. So it’s great, and I’m very bullish on it.

Do you think there’s any shot for sales—download or physical—to exist for another five or 10 years?
Yeah. It’s obviously not going to be dominant. I’m an old-school guy, so I listen to music in two places: on the golf course and in the car. It’s easier for me. And, yeah, I’m like everybody else, not listening to whole albums ever. The thing for me is to just go on iTunes and make a playlist. I prefer to do that quality-wise on my golf cart or in my car than stream it. At home I’m watching TV or on the computer, I don’t listen at home except in the background. So I’ll use Spotify in the house, but not in the car or while golfing.

Do you think that if music had a galvanizing cultural icon like Tiger Woods or a Muhammad Ali, that the spotlight would shine back, and that it’s a matter of the product not being special?
I think it is shining back on the music. Brands are coming in droves to spend money with artists right now. I mean, there’s money going out of sports and television into music in a big way.

Do you want to do like a little name association with some of the names from the past? A Walter Yetnikoff story or take?
Nobody wants to read that stuff. We already went back to 1970.

Maybe it’s only interesting to us. How about this question: How did Warner Music go from being the greatest music company to what it is today?
Four words: Bob Morgado, Michael Fuchs. It was kaddish before Edgar got there.

And what happened to this guy Lyor Cohen, who used to be an important executive at Warners?
He took a job as the resident actor at HITS magazine. Career cul-de-sac. [Laughter]

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